ION vs Kevala
Hi
I really want to be able to offer nutritional therapy to my clients and have been looking at two places for a course. Institute of optimum nutrition and keval (distance learning). Both are recognised by BANT but I wondered which is the best? Every nutritionist I have ever come across has studied with ION.
The dilema lies with I don't have the science requisite that ION ask for so would have to wait a year but also since having my baby I'm still quite a bit overweight and don't want to be the only out of shape person there!! If I study with kevala I can start now, learn and lose weight at the same time.
Kevala works out more expensive because you have to travel & find accomodation at their clinical weekends whereas ION is within travelling distance.
Can I get some thoughts?
thanks
Answers:
littleone hi there
not sure if i will be of any help i am in the process of doing kevla reflexology course which i am really enjoying a friend of mine who has been qualified for a good few years was unsure about it initially however having looked at the work they have given me to do and the help that has been offered she now says how impressed she is. they have as i said been very helpful and patient when i took an awful long time to return work because i had been ill. i would say that it is well worth giving a lot of consideration to
hope it was of some help and you get on ok whatever you decide to do
kathryn
Answers:
Patchouli The ION course has been imo good. I, personally have felt they have given me a lot of support. There are some who are on my course who feel this isn't the case. There has also been quite a high drop out rate, but this has usually been personal reasons, though one or two have gone because they have struggled with the content.
Re: courses being recognised by Bant. This is so, but it is the NTC that will be accrediting courses and at this time NO ONE course in Nutrition is accredited by the NTC. All the courses listed on the NTC website are "members of the Schools Forum" until they become accredited.
The ION course is quite academic. If you don't have chemistry, biology or anat and phys they would expect you to do their science access course which depending on whether you have to do one, two or three of the modules will cost.
I had to do chemistry and biology, despite having a qualification in biology they said it was too far back and didn't count.
The ION course is like foundation degree in that you have strict deadlines to get your coursework in and if it isn't it counts as a fail.
The course fees are roughly about 2, 800 a year also so it is a lot of money to put out as well.
I know courses done by the Nutritional Healing Foundation are less academic, have more of a naturopathic/holistic slant and are also cheaper. They do courses around the whole of the UK.
By less academic I mean they do not have so much coursework which goes in to biochemistry in great detail the way ION do. Saying that there have been a couple of people on my course that feel ION aren't academic enough and don't go in to the biochemistry enough but I certainly feel it is enough for me.
If you go to the NTC website, click on training and education, click on United Kingdom it will give you the whole list that are on the "schools forum".
Saying that, just because a training establishment is on the NTC school forum won't necessarily mean that they will eventually become accredited by the NTC and I notice that at the top of the NTC website it takes no responsibility for any of the training establishments that it has on its list. It does however, give some tips for choosing a training establishment.
If I can think of other things I will get back to you, I can only tell you of my experience with ION.
Have to say though, we had one "lecture" from Patrick Holford (founder of ION) and it was a major disappointment in content.
It was just about all his books and imo was the same stuff he spouts when he does his book tours. I was also a bit irked that at the end of his "lecture" (aka self promotion) there had been set up a stall which was selling all his books:( like as if they don't get enough money from us!! I don't think many of the class were too impressed with that day.
Patchouli
Answers:
Patchouli Had an email from a second year student today, from a long personal thread going through an ION forum.
She said that it gets better after first year as the courses becomes more about the client which is more up my street.
Answers:
Jadegirl its not the academics that bothers me (I already have a degree). Its having to redo science even via an access course. Other places don't require it especially if your a mature student but ION does. To me its a waste of a year. I'd even go as far as to say I'd prefer it if I could study the sciences at the same time as my first year as its only 1 weekend a month but they don't allow it.
Answers:
Patchouli I know one of the girls on my course did it by mail (at home) I could ask her how she managed to do it as they wouldn't let me though she did.
Think they make the rules up as they go along.
Patch
Answers:
holisticheaven Hi,
I have studied two courses through Kevala (Aromatherapy & Reflexology) and must say that the course content is to a very high standard. The courses are distance but there are also some excellent weekend tutorials.
x
Answers:
angie54321 I would bear in mind that Patrick Holford (ION) has a bit of a dodgy reputation - his research is poor, his conclusions weak, and he seems willing to try and cash in on everything - someone who makes money on a range of vitamins and minerals etc should perhaps be viewed with suspicion.
Do check into his qualifications for running this course and business.
And do check his connections with certain South African vitamin pushers, who promote Vitamin C as better than drugs for AIDS. (Mathias Rath)
He is not a man I would be willing to be named with!
www.holfordwatch.info would be a good place to start.
Patrick's work is widely discredited, so you may be wiser to go elsewhere.
Answers:
Patchouli Wow angie. I had a look at that site and imo I am not at all impressed.
People who remain anonymous slating someone who dares to put their head above the parapet. Slating in cyberspace is for cowards.
Much as I believe PH to be a shameless self promoter, I think you should be careful with what you say unless you have irrefutable proof.
All research is open to debate and much is re-assesed, changed, discredited or hopefully some is substantiated.
Bigger and better people in science, medicine, nutrition (you name it) have been both lauded and ridiculed by their peers at some time or another.
Heck, even Ghandi and Mother Theresa have their "fors" and "againsts"
Regards
Patchouli
p.s. on my course we have doctors, dieticians, sports physiotherapists, nurses etc all educated to degree level.......but I guess you think we are all idiots for doing the ION course, which, may I add, has people waiting eagerly to commence the course. I didn't find this with any other course I looked at.
Answers:
angie54321
Patchouli
Glad you 'liked' it - I like to open people's eyes. I too was not impressed with the site - not impressed with the information that it contained, that is. To me, it raises serious doubts.
I will be honest with you - I did, a few years ago, consider studying with Patrick Holford - I was very interested in what he was doing. I watched him on TV, read his books etc. Unfortunately I think Patrick has gone too far - for him it is now just a sales machine (and remember he got his own qualification in nutrition from the ION - the organisation he set up himself! I could do exactly the same - set up an organisation and then award myself a qualification - but really, would you trust me? I certainly wouldn't!).
If you don't trust that site, check out others. Start with Ben Goldacre's Bad Science site. (you can't accuse him of hiding his name and credentials!)Direct link - http://www.badscience.net/?cat=70. He has some interesting things to say. Then try Quackwatch (that's Stephen Barrett's site.) Then contact the British Dieteticans Association. Give them a call. Ask them for their opinion on Patrick Holford. Try DC'S Improbable Science (that's Prof David Colquhoun's site). Then go to the NHS Blog Doctor (he has to hide his name for reasons that will become obvious when you read his blog); the Quackometer (Andy Lewis's site); Skeptico blog......and that is just the start. Of course James Randi's site is always full of info.
As for who was on your course....straw man? What has that got to do with anything? We can all be fooled - doctors, for instance, have 1 lecture on nutrition during their training. Nurses get very general advice (I did when I did my RGN training) - sports physiotherapists - well they could be crystal healers for all the relevance that is - even dieticians - don't forget they will keep the good and throw out the bad for they will recognise the bad....(and of course, people can claim to be anything - I am also a nutritionist.)
Now, I used to like Patrick Holford. I used to really like and admire him. In fact, I think he was, virtually single handedly, respsonsible for bringing in good healthy eating guidelines to the nations attention. For that I praise him wholeheartedly.
His books, I have a problem with. Say No To Cancer - if, for instance my friend has just been diagnosed - should she go to the Doctor, (who 'we' all distrust so much), or read Patrick's book, and digest not only the content but the vitamins that he sells. Some people will chose Patrick. And not bother with the GP. Personally, I would go to the Doctor, but I would do some research on what Patrick is suggesting, and if I thought it relevant, try that as well.
So, as I said, I am not anti Holford. But I do my research on everyone - I never take anything at face value, and I am a skeptic.
And I can understand your feelings and your hostility towards me - you have invested valuable time and effort into the training, as well as a few thousand pounds. But open your eyes - I am not saying it is all rubbish, just some of it. Do some searches, do some more learning - train with the BDA - and you will learn to tell what is good and what is bad. And will be able to analyze his research and his conclusions, instead of him doing it for you.
I wish you well!
Answers:
Patchouli Angie, with all respect, I have no hostility towards you, I don't even know you.
You qoute a lot of people who are largely discredited themselves especially Stephen Barret who was, I believe struck off and appears to have a grudge against the world and has been discredited and is considered a joke by all and sundry in America. If you search even more you can easily find this.
I was a nurse for over 20 years, educated to degree level and am more than aware what people have been taught, doctors, nurses, dieticians etc.
My own holistic health centre has a doctor, dietician, nurse and podiatrist amongst the practitioners working there. We all try to base our practice on the evidence that is available to us in the present.
I think what I really do find quite annoying about your posts are that you appear to think you are more knowledgable than most. You really should consider that some of us have had extensive life experience, training and are just as able as you to access information.
I think you said it all when, in your first paragraph you state..."I like to open peoples eyes"..........Well, honey my eyes are well and truly open, but maybe you should open your mind to a favourite saying of mine.....
"The fool doth think himself to be a wise man.....the wise man knoweth himself to be a fool"
Think about it!
And don't keep reading silly sites like quackwatch which have been ridiculed by all and sundry in both medicine and complementary circles or blogwatches.
For goodness sake, read the Lancet or such like (but keep an open mind with that too as , hell, who knows, someone else will write something with a 180 degree turn the next month)
Regards
patchouli
Answers:
angie54321 Re - Stephen Barrett - I suggest you do your research.
Re - qualifications - I have a PhD - shall I pull rank?
Please don't talk down to me - you sound quite bitter, and I understand that, as I am 'having a go' at someone you admire and trust - but that's nothing to do with me. Your problem, not mine.
I do read the Lancet, I have a full subscription. And the BMJ.(Full subscription) And New Scientist (full subscription). The reason they 'change their minds' is that they don't stop researching and discovering new information. This is not a negative, it is a positive. Medicine/science does not sit back and claim that things must be correct because of 'ancient wisdom' discovered 1000+ years ago. (I am not suggesting that Patrick does this, by the way.)
As for accusing me of behaving more knowledgable than most....reread YOUR post. Very patronising. (Have you EVER considered that indeed, someone, may just be, a tiny bit more knowledgeable than you?)
Silly sites? Hmm, I don't accept nutritional advise from someone who has a degree in experimental psychology, and someone who has been in the nutritional field for 30 years, but as yet has not 'found time' to get a proper qualification. And who failed his nutrition qualification at Sussex University after 2 years. And I haven't handed over thousands of pounds to him.
You obviously believe in 'real' qualifications - what's his excuse?
As I said, I am not anti-Holford, but I do take what he says with a pinch of salt specially when he states in his 100% Health magazine - yes I used to subscribe - that the best vitamins were his brand - wonder why he said that? And they were more expensive than most brands on the market.
Should I place a patronising quote here to match yours?
Any AIDS patients for Vitamin C? Or how about a Q link pendant? Puleez.
Patchouli (is that your real name?) I hope you find your qualification useful.
I wish you well.
Answers:
Patchouli LIke I said Angie, I have no hostility towards you, I do not know you. You on the other hand appear quite belligerent in your last post but I will ignore that.
We can banter credibility and discredibility till we are blue in the face it will not change what either of us think.
The fact remains that people will pay their money and take their choice.
Regards.
Jadegirl, sorry your thread has been hijacked and has gone slightly off topic. I know you will research the course you want to do an I am sure you will be satisfied with whichever choice you make. I have seen good and bad about all the courses offered on the NTC website. The other course I mentioned in an earlier post, if you put it into HP search facility there is some info about that too, I have to say not very positive, basically someone has posted saying that you would be better off buying a good book on nutritition.
Re: the pm you sent me about the centre. I will get back to you about it but it is Monday am and once I have seen some clients and did the staff wages I will hopefully have time to let you know what my experiences have been.
Regards
Patchouli
I really want to be able to offer nutritional therapy to my clients and have been looking at two places for a course. Institute of optimum nutrition and keval (distance learning). Both are recognised by BANT but I wondered which is the best? Every nutritionist I have ever come across has studied with ION.
The dilema lies with I don't have the science requisite that ION ask for so would have to wait a year but also since having my baby I'm still quite a bit overweight and don't want to be the only out of shape person there!! If I study with kevala I can start now, learn and lose weight at the same time.
Kevala works out more expensive because you have to travel & find accomodation at their clinical weekends whereas ION is within travelling distance.
Can I get some thoughts?
thanks
Answers:
littleone hi there
not sure if i will be of any help i am in the process of doing kevla reflexology course which i am really enjoying a friend of mine who has been qualified for a good few years was unsure about it initially however having looked at the work they have given me to do and the help that has been offered she now says how impressed she is. they have as i said been very helpful and patient when i took an awful long time to return work because i had been ill. i would say that it is well worth giving a lot of consideration to
hope it was of some help and you get on ok whatever you decide to do
kathryn
Answers:
Patchouli The ION course has been imo good. I, personally have felt they have given me a lot of support. There are some who are on my course who feel this isn't the case. There has also been quite a high drop out rate, but this has usually been personal reasons, though one or two have gone because they have struggled with the content.
Re: courses being recognised by Bant. This is so, but it is the NTC that will be accrediting courses and at this time NO ONE course in Nutrition is accredited by the NTC. All the courses listed on the NTC website are "members of the Schools Forum" until they become accredited.
The ION course is quite academic. If you don't have chemistry, biology or anat and phys they would expect you to do their science access course which depending on whether you have to do one, two or three of the modules will cost.
I had to do chemistry and biology, despite having a qualification in biology they said it was too far back and didn't count.
The ION course is like foundation degree in that you have strict deadlines to get your coursework in and if it isn't it counts as a fail.
The course fees are roughly about 2, 800 a year also so it is a lot of money to put out as well.
I know courses done by the Nutritional Healing Foundation are less academic, have more of a naturopathic/holistic slant and are also cheaper. They do courses around the whole of the UK.
By less academic I mean they do not have so much coursework which goes in to biochemistry in great detail the way ION do. Saying that there have been a couple of people on my course that feel ION aren't academic enough and don't go in to the biochemistry enough but I certainly feel it is enough for me.
If you go to the NTC website, click on training and education, click on United Kingdom it will give you the whole list that are on the "schools forum".
Saying that, just because a training establishment is on the NTC school forum won't necessarily mean that they will eventually become accredited by the NTC and I notice that at the top of the NTC website it takes no responsibility for any of the training establishments that it has on its list. It does however, give some tips for choosing a training establishment.
If I can think of other things I will get back to you, I can only tell you of my experience with ION.
Have to say though, we had one "lecture" from Patrick Holford (founder of ION) and it was a major disappointment in content.
It was just about all his books and imo was the same stuff he spouts when he does his book tours. I was also a bit irked that at the end of his "lecture" (aka self promotion) there had been set up a stall which was selling all his books:( like as if they don't get enough money from us!! I don't think many of the class were too impressed with that day.
Patchouli
Answers:
Patchouli Had an email from a second year student today, from a long personal thread going through an ION forum.
She said that it gets better after first year as the courses becomes more about the client which is more up my street.
Answers:
Jadegirl its not the academics that bothers me (I already have a degree). Its having to redo science even via an access course. Other places don't require it especially if your a mature student but ION does. To me its a waste of a year. I'd even go as far as to say I'd prefer it if I could study the sciences at the same time as my first year as its only 1 weekend a month but they don't allow it.
Answers:
Patchouli I know one of the girls on my course did it by mail (at home) I could ask her how she managed to do it as they wouldn't let me though she did.
Think they make the rules up as they go along.
Patch
Answers:
holisticheaven Hi,
I have studied two courses through Kevala (Aromatherapy & Reflexology) and must say that the course content is to a very high standard. The courses are distance but there are also some excellent weekend tutorials.
x
Answers:
angie54321 I would bear in mind that Patrick Holford (ION) has a bit of a dodgy reputation - his research is poor, his conclusions weak, and he seems willing to try and cash in on everything - someone who makes money on a range of vitamins and minerals etc should perhaps be viewed with suspicion.
Do check into his qualifications for running this course and business.
And do check his connections with certain South African vitamin pushers, who promote Vitamin C as better than drugs for AIDS. (Mathias Rath)
He is not a man I would be willing to be named with!
www.holfordwatch.info would be a good place to start.
Patrick's work is widely discredited, so you may be wiser to go elsewhere.
Answers:
Patchouli Wow angie. I had a look at that site and imo I am not at all impressed.
People who remain anonymous slating someone who dares to put their head above the parapet. Slating in cyberspace is for cowards.
Much as I believe PH to be a shameless self promoter, I think you should be careful with what you say unless you have irrefutable proof.
All research is open to debate and much is re-assesed, changed, discredited or hopefully some is substantiated.
Bigger and better people in science, medicine, nutrition (you name it) have been both lauded and ridiculed by their peers at some time or another.
Heck, even Ghandi and Mother Theresa have their "fors" and "againsts"
Regards
Patchouli
p.s. on my course we have doctors, dieticians, sports physiotherapists, nurses etc all educated to degree level.......but I guess you think we are all idiots for doing the ION course, which, may I add, has people waiting eagerly to commence the course. I didn't find this with any other course I looked at.
Answers:
angie54321
Patchouli
Glad you 'liked' it - I like to open people's eyes. I too was not impressed with the site - not impressed with the information that it contained, that is. To me, it raises serious doubts.
I will be honest with you - I did, a few years ago, consider studying with Patrick Holford - I was very interested in what he was doing. I watched him on TV, read his books etc. Unfortunately I think Patrick has gone too far - for him it is now just a sales machine (and remember he got his own qualification in nutrition from the ION - the organisation he set up himself! I could do exactly the same - set up an organisation and then award myself a qualification - but really, would you trust me? I certainly wouldn't!).
If you don't trust that site, check out others. Start with Ben Goldacre's Bad Science site. (you can't accuse him of hiding his name and credentials!)Direct link - http://www.badscience.net/?cat=70. He has some interesting things to say. Then try Quackwatch (that's Stephen Barrett's site.) Then contact the British Dieteticans Association. Give them a call. Ask them for their opinion on Patrick Holford. Try DC'S Improbable Science (that's Prof David Colquhoun's site). Then go to the NHS Blog Doctor (he has to hide his name for reasons that will become obvious when you read his blog); the Quackometer (Andy Lewis's site); Skeptico blog......and that is just the start. Of course James Randi's site is always full of info.
As for who was on your course....straw man? What has that got to do with anything? We can all be fooled - doctors, for instance, have 1 lecture on nutrition during their training. Nurses get very general advice (I did when I did my RGN training) - sports physiotherapists - well they could be crystal healers for all the relevance that is - even dieticians - don't forget they will keep the good and throw out the bad for they will recognise the bad....(and of course, people can claim to be anything - I am also a nutritionist.)
Now, I used to like Patrick Holford. I used to really like and admire him. In fact, I think he was, virtually single handedly, respsonsible for bringing in good healthy eating guidelines to the nations attention. For that I praise him wholeheartedly.
His books, I have a problem with. Say No To Cancer - if, for instance my friend has just been diagnosed - should she go to the Doctor, (who 'we' all distrust so much), or read Patrick's book, and digest not only the content but the vitamins that he sells. Some people will chose Patrick. And not bother with the GP. Personally, I would go to the Doctor, but I would do some research on what Patrick is suggesting, and if I thought it relevant, try that as well.
So, as I said, I am not anti Holford. But I do my research on everyone - I never take anything at face value, and I am a skeptic.
And I can understand your feelings and your hostility towards me - you have invested valuable time and effort into the training, as well as a few thousand pounds. But open your eyes - I am not saying it is all rubbish, just some of it. Do some searches, do some more learning - train with the BDA - and you will learn to tell what is good and what is bad. And will be able to analyze his research and his conclusions, instead of him doing it for you.
I wish you well!
Answers:
Patchouli Angie, with all respect, I have no hostility towards you, I don't even know you.
You qoute a lot of people who are largely discredited themselves especially Stephen Barret who was, I believe struck off and appears to have a grudge against the world and has been discredited and is considered a joke by all and sundry in America. If you search even more you can easily find this.
I was a nurse for over 20 years, educated to degree level and am more than aware what people have been taught, doctors, nurses, dieticians etc.
My own holistic health centre has a doctor, dietician, nurse and podiatrist amongst the practitioners working there. We all try to base our practice on the evidence that is available to us in the present.
I think what I really do find quite annoying about your posts are that you appear to think you are more knowledgable than most. You really should consider that some of us have had extensive life experience, training and are just as able as you to access information.
I think you said it all when, in your first paragraph you state..."I like to open peoples eyes"..........Well, honey my eyes are well and truly open, but maybe you should open your mind to a favourite saying of mine.....
"The fool doth think himself to be a wise man.....the wise man knoweth himself to be a fool"
Think about it!
And don't keep reading silly sites like quackwatch which have been ridiculed by all and sundry in both medicine and complementary circles or blogwatches.
For goodness sake, read the Lancet or such like (but keep an open mind with that too as , hell, who knows, someone else will write something with a 180 degree turn the next month)
Regards
patchouli
Answers:
angie54321 Re - Stephen Barrett - I suggest you do your research.
Re - qualifications - I have a PhD - shall I pull rank?
Please don't talk down to me - you sound quite bitter, and I understand that, as I am 'having a go' at someone you admire and trust - but that's nothing to do with me. Your problem, not mine.
I do read the Lancet, I have a full subscription. And the BMJ.(Full subscription) And New Scientist (full subscription). The reason they 'change their minds' is that they don't stop researching and discovering new information. This is not a negative, it is a positive. Medicine/science does not sit back and claim that things must be correct because of 'ancient wisdom' discovered 1000+ years ago. (I am not suggesting that Patrick does this, by the way.)
As for accusing me of behaving more knowledgable than most....reread YOUR post. Very patronising. (Have you EVER considered that indeed, someone, may just be, a tiny bit more knowledgeable than you?)
Silly sites? Hmm, I don't accept nutritional advise from someone who has a degree in experimental psychology, and someone who has been in the nutritional field for 30 years, but as yet has not 'found time' to get a proper qualification. And who failed his nutrition qualification at Sussex University after 2 years. And I haven't handed over thousands of pounds to him.
You obviously believe in 'real' qualifications - what's his excuse?
As I said, I am not anti-Holford, but I do take what he says with a pinch of salt specially when he states in his 100% Health magazine - yes I used to subscribe - that the best vitamins were his brand - wonder why he said that? And they were more expensive than most brands on the market.
Should I place a patronising quote here to match yours?
Any AIDS patients for Vitamin C? Or how about a Q link pendant? Puleez.
Patchouli (is that your real name?) I hope you find your qualification useful.
I wish you well.
Answers:
Patchouli LIke I said Angie, I have no hostility towards you, I do not know you. You on the other hand appear quite belligerent in your last post but I will ignore that.
We can banter credibility and discredibility till we are blue in the face it will not change what either of us think.
The fact remains that people will pay their money and take their choice.
Regards.
Jadegirl, sorry your thread has been hijacked and has gone slightly off topic. I know you will research the course you want to do an I am sure you will be satisfied with whichever choice you make. I have seen good and bad about all the courses offered on the NTC website. The other course I mentioned in an earlier post, if you put it into HP search facility there is some info about that too, I have to say not very positive, basically someone has posted saying that you would be better off buying a good book on nutritition.
Re: the pm you sent me about the centre. I will get back to you about it but it is Monday am and once I have seen some clients and did the staff wages I will hopefully have time to let you know what my experiences have been.
Regards
Patchouli