Tamiflu
OK ... this subject is bound to come up in a bigger way over time so it may as well be now. [Can I just say that I'm not panicking, I'm not 'afraid', or etc., etc., and don't need any advice on that.I'm ust a practicalrealist and I can see what may be on its way.] There's already, I just saw, a thread on avian flu so the subject in general can be discussed there:
My question is simple. The government has stockpiled all the Tamiflu it could (sufficient for one quarter the population)and it's now hard to get it privately, and possibly reaching the impossible stage. Has anyone obtained it successfully over the net or by any other means recently, and if so where/how? HP seems as good a place as any to ask...
Thanks, and feel welcome to reply by PM if not as a post,
Venetian
Answers:
I think this has been blown up out of all proportion. *IF* it breaks out over here then the manufacturing company are based in the UK and have the possibilities of making more than enough to go around. That said I used to work for said company and I personally would not take Tamiflu, nor would I pin my hopes on it as a "cure".
Don't panic Mr. Mannering!
Answers:
Already said it's nothing to do with panic, just rationality IMHO- though I appreciate the Manneringjoke :-)
There isn't an "if" about whether it breaks out "over here" but simply a global "if", probably. It's doubtful it would be contained anywhere. As for Tamiflu not being worthwhile, I only go on what one hears, such as that it is effective according to the government, which is why they've stockpiled the lot of it currently available so far as I know. For example, they'd use it on essential health and municipal workers to try to keep things working. I'm not always one to trust the government [:-]but they seem pretty sure about Tamiflu being something which "attacks the flu virus".
V
Answers:
Hi, IMO tamiflu is pretty much a massive waste of money and that goes as well for all vaccinations which are flawed, contaminated [cross infected plus heavy metals] and dangerous....., they just dont work...all my mums [in her 70s] friends have had the flu jab and all of them have still managed to get the flu [albeit somewhat mild...]
the reason for this is simple, viruses are very simple organisms and easily mutate themselves rendering any anti-virus useless as they no longer match to be effective....and what does not kill a thing only makes it stronger[as we are seeing with the superbugs], scientists are actually admitting this now [as seen on tv last night for example] but are saying better to have something ready than nothing, even if it dos'nt work.....in other words completly dismissing natural approaches which will potentially be a fatal mistake for alot of un-informed individuals...
IMO if people wish to be fore-armed make sure you have a stock of herbs and other natural products and methods that have a strong anti-viral effect.
Anyone reading this has the ability to INFORM themselves[search engine!] of the real truth and act according.....if you are waiting for health authoritys to act on your behalf that will prob. be a very costly mistake both in financial and human terms.
Answers:
wolfen, hi. I can take irreverence enough to appreciate your signature. :D
More seriously, I suppose the thread may take any direction people in their free will desire, but my initial post was a simple question on knowledge of any remainingavailability, nothing more.
I wouldn't call tamiflu a "massive" waste of money as it was formerly going for just a few tenners and could save lives! People pay the same for a couple of massages or homeopathic remedies!
Ouch, I'm no disbeliever in natural products, but I've a feeling they may not tend to be up to this one. It looks as if you simply have your own opinion which is weighted against allopathy. Personally I'd see nothing wrong with using everything to hand, natural or otherwise.
Venetian
Answers:
Tamiflu is probably the best of the limited number of allopathic defenses. It won't stop you catching it, it has no prophylactic action and it won't "cure" it either, from what I can remember it binds to an enzyme in the virus with the theory that it is then unable to replicate itself (so you remain infected but it doesn't worsen), from memory again I think on average it shortens the duration of infection for a day and mildly reduces the mortality rates, but those at greatest risk of mortality will remain the same as they still won't have the immunity to fight the lessened severity of the virus if that makes sense?
I know when I worked there (going back 4yrs now) it certainly never really took off as the wonderdrug it was hailed as, if it really was so great at its job (and of course it must have some effect to have a licence) why was it not used massively then? common or garden influenza is a real killer (we seem to forget that with people getting jumpy over avian flu) so why was it not made routine protocol to treat every case with it? why rely so heavily on the (also not especially effective) vaccine? Also I doubt the government aren't as keen to make people aware of the documented side effects? did you know for instance that it can (and does) cause severe psychological disorders? (there have been a good few number of reports of those who have committed suicide after taking it), the cycnical part of me wonders if Roche are not rubbing their hands in glee that this is being glossed over whilst they are being hailed as the saviour of the nation?
I think allopathically, really the only hope is that a vaccine is isolated quickly. I'm not dismissing this because I'm a homoeopath, my background is in pharmaceuticals and I'm actually a great believer in it and some of the wonderful drugs we have created. I just think this is one were allopathy can't win. The government need to educate society in preventative measures (for example I keep free range chickens, as do thousands of homes in the country - I had to actively seek out the DEFRA safety advice, not once have I seen it publicised anywhere, in in places where it would make sense like animal feed stores, now if my chickens get sick, I know what to look out for and what to dobut I wouldn't have unless I had actively sought the advice!).
I do think alternative medicines have a large role to play here and one which the government are being foolish to overlook. Nature has some very powerful antivirals. I have prophylaxed my chickens homoeopathically and *if* (sorry I still stand by that :D) it makes it over here, I will seek colleagues advice to come up with a homoeopathic pandemic remedy, I will also be reading up on other forms of alternative treatment so that I can formulate my own "action plan" (one that doesn't include Tamiflu in case you hadn't guessed :D). I'm sure you could get some on the internet somewhere if you googled? just make sure it isstill in the branded blister packs.I just fear that we are creating a shortage in the same way that we all panic over petrol shortages when the blockades are in force:D
Maybe I should be more worried? who knows!!!!!
Answers:
That's a good all-round view IMHO. Thanks.
Well, I have an attitude toward these things that even if it's as bad as can be, there's no point in worry. ;)
Couple of points. Yes, certainly don't discount that natural remedies may have an effect. But possibly minor? Yes, I also on google saw links about suicides but didn't click onto them.
Non-seriously, taking up your point on Roche our great saviours. I wonder if they happen (the conspiracy theorist in me wonders) to be in China right now tampering with chickens? :eek:(Joke.)
If it could turn out this way, since avian flu pandemics apparently occur anyway about three times a century, the best possible outcome would be for H5N1 not to jump species to humans (as human-to-human) but for it to be a huge wake-up call for much better preparedness for when the next pandemic actually does occur. That's to me the best hope.
And maybe in the looooong term we could persuade the Chinese and others into different diets and lifestyle. These things don't need to occur.
Venetian
Answers:
LOL :Doh if you'd met the Roche big wigs you'd understand why they would never go to China (they're all traditional Swiss banker types). The suicide claims are true, I've seen the official paperwork.
Answers:
HS, (if I may so abbreviate?), many years ago I lived overseas for a while. "Expat" Brits consulted a Swiss doctor ('nuff said? ;)) Anyway, it was widely recommended that whatever dose Dr X prescribed, if you halved it, you might stand a chance of remaining on your feet or, if bed ridden, of rising from it that much sooner. :D
:eek: Seriously now, I wonder if you could be persuaded to post briefly on the Pets, Animals and Wildlife Forum in regard to your freerange chickens, eg DEFRA's website, and where people can go for more information. Thanks.
Venetian, in answer to your original question, though my reply may not help much and is what I have heard on BBC TV News. And I have not personally bought it online, and don't intend to.
There have been warnings NOT to buy Tamiflu over the Internet because of the risk of getting a sub-standard or fake product rather than the real McCoy. I'm sure you've already discovered that if you put "Tamiflu online" into Google, you'll get millions - literally - of results, including Tamiflu's own website, which states it is for USA users only. Safety regulations?
As for standard flu jabs - said to be no protection whatsoever against bird flu. A few years ago, when flu jabs were beingrecommended, I got a very strong gut feeling that "I do not want that rubbish in my body", so I've never had one.
Perhaps I'm being an ostrich about bird flu (sorry! [&o]) but while I'm a great believer in the efficacy of herbal remedies and take them to great effect, I also agree with your balanced view about seeing what's available from all fronts, and making an informed decision. I also think there's a lot to be said for an attitude of "I'm not getting flu - I'm too busy" - facile possibly, but it's worked for me. *Touches wood*.;)
Holistic
Answers:
Agreed. It's never even ever occurred to me.
I think apologies are in order with that one!
Yeah, I know what you mean - with regard to ordinary flu. There's a post up above as though this would just be another flu but maybe a bit worse! Unfortunately it would be a whole different level of thing, and without going into detail the record of what happened in 1918 is plain. Positive thinking for most people is unlikely to hack it. From the 1918 example, you'd be beyond thinking clearlywithin a few hours.
I'm sure the super-rich can obviously get anything they want, but it looks like as far as the original thread subject is concerned it could be too late to get any Tamiflu, or, as you say, it'd be a big online risk.
V
Answers:
[blockquote]
[sm=hidesbehindsofa.gif] *grovels* I'm really, truly sorry I said that!
There have been full programmes devoted to bird flu, but they tend to be shown around the time I usually have dinner and some of the Asian content in particular is not exactly appetite enhancing.[:'(] However, I did watch a bit about a doctor being interviewed, in Asia, using x rays to demonstratehow totally and rapidlylungs are destroyed. Not nice!
I forgot to say earlier, on the topic of availability of Tamiflu, I heard some talk of the manufacturers allowing others to also make the tablets under license.
EDITED to add a link on this:
Holistic[/blockquote]
Answers:
Have to agree holistic....there was some totally un-nessescary experimentation happenning to cats going on it that prog.[:@]
sickening ![:'(]
Answers:
I wouldn't worry about it big V!
Whilst I'm not huge on conspiracy theories - I do think this one is a big media hype stratergy. What story would you put on the front page if your were trying to sell your 'rag'?
Add to that -The pharma companies aren't yet struggling for cash, but they are starting to feel the need for some long term security.
It all sounds a bit Hitchcockian to me, but then I have good sources for my alchemical tinkerings.
Andrew.
Answers:
Hi And,
Trouble is, on conspiracy, it can be hard to know which way it's going. When this was really in the news a week or so back, seemingly independently-thinking scientists were saying "It's not if, but when". If true that it usually happens three times a century, that figures. I forget the actual quotes, but I was thinking 'conspiracy of silence?' when there were some front-page quotes trying to play the subject down.
Interesting - just like bootleg CDs etc., you probably got the story a few days back that India apparently copies drugs from companies like Roche without licence e.g. drugs that help fight AIDS. They were claiming to have copied Tamiflu. That led to an interesting war of words: Roche made it seem producing Tamiflu was about as hard as building a rocket to the moon - "Incredibly complex, a great number of ingredients, at one stage it can explode" (I think I really read that!). On the other hand, they are talking about - I forget the technical term - but taking the licence from Roche and making it public domain, basically.
Also interesting that at least the UK says it has enough of the vaccine for 25% of the pop. By contrast the big, wealthy USA, where you have to pay privately virtually to live, has only enough for 4.5%. What's the guessing what kind of people that's reserved, and not reserved,for?
V
Answers:
No-one is sure how viable Tamiflu is going to be. If bird flu comes then take sensible precautions about crowded places etc. For myself I would far rather be prepared by having echnicea, Vitamin C and when my kids were little I gave them orange flavoured Cod liver oil with vitamin C (they very rarely had chest or flu problems) so much so that my mother who suffered from brochitis now takes Cod liver Oil and Vit C every day and it has really turned the winters around.
There is so much you can do to empower yourself. If we had to relie on any outside help in a crisis, I think most of us would be on the lowest rung of the food chain. Just work out a strategy, prepare for it and then forget about it and have fun, enjoy Christmas.
I have a two-page pdf aromatherapy outline of what one practice in Hong Kong is doing to minimise the affects of SARS (Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome – Atypical Pneumonia). If I remember correctly that too was caught from chickens etc.
If anyone wants a copy just email and I will send it. It contains methods etc. Unfortunately I don't have the website, but you have all the health centre's details if you want to find out more,
These are their recommendations and the oils. Remember essential oils must always be diluted in a carrier oil and used with caution if pregnant or if you have a medical condition.
E
Answers:
Sorry part of my email got wiped out here's part 2.
My question is simple. The government has stockpiled all the Tamiflu it could (sufficient for one quarter the population)and it's now hard to get it privately, and possibly reaching the impossible stage. Has anyone obtained it successfully over the net or by any other means recently, and if so where/how? HP seems as good a place as any to ask...
Thanks, and feel welcome to reply by PM if not as a post,
Venetian
Answers:
I think this has been blown up out of all proportion. *IF* it breaks out over here then the manufacturing company are based in the UK and have the possibilities of making more than enough to go around. That said I used to work for said company and I personally would not take Tamiflu, nor would I pin my hopes on it as a "cure".
Don't panic Mr. Mannering!
Answers:
Already said it's nothing to do with panic, just rationality IMHO- though I appreciate the Manneringjoke :-)
There isn't an "if" about whether it breaks out "over here" but simply a global "if", probably. It's doubtful it would be contained anywhere. As for Tamiflu not being worthwhile, I only go on what one hears, such as that it is effective according to the government, which is why they've stockpiled the lot of it currently available so far as I know. For example, they'd use it on essential health and municipal workers to try to keep things working. I'm not always one to trust the government [:-]but they seem pretty sure about Tamiflu being something which "attacks the flu virus".
V
Answers:
Hi, IMO tamiflu is pretty much a massive waste of money and that goes as well for all vaccinations which are flawed, contaminated [cross infected plus heavy metals] and dangerous....., they just dont work...all my mums [in her 70s] friends have had the flu jab and all of them have still managed to get the flu [albeit somewhat mild...]
the reason for this is simple, viruses are very simple organisms and easily mutate themselves rendering any anti-virus useless as they no longer match to be effective....and what does not kill a thing only makes it stronger[as we are seeing with the superbugs], scientists are actually admitting this now [as seen on tv last night for example] but are saying better to have something ready than nothing, even if it dos'nt work.....in other words completly dismissing natural approaches which will potentially be a fatal mistake for alot of un-informed individuals...
IMO if people wish to be fore-armed make sure you have a stock of herbs and other natural products and methods that have a strong anti-viral effect.
Anyone reading this has the ability to INFORM themselves[search engine!] of the real truth and act according.....if you are waiting for health authoritys to act on your behalf that will prob. be a very costly mistake both in financial and human terms.
Answers:
wolfen, hi. I can take irreverence enough to appreciate your signature. :D
More seriously, I suppose the thread may take any direction people in their free will desire, but my initial post was a simple question on knowledge of any remainingavailability, nothing more.
I wouldn't call tamiflu a "massive" waste of money as it was formerly going for just a few tenners and could save lives! People pay the same for a couple of massages or homeopathic remedies!
Ouch, I'm no disbeliever in natural products, but I've a feeling they may not tend to be up to this one. It looks as if you simply have your own opinion which is weighted against allopathy. Personally I'd see nothing wrong with using everything to hand, natural or otherwise.
Venetian
Answers:
Tamiflu is probably the best of the limited number of allopathic defenses. It won't stop you catching it, it has no prophylactic action and it won't "cure" it either, from what I can remember it binds to an enzyme in the virus with the theory that it is then unable to replicate itself (so you remain infected but it doesn't worsen), from memory again I think on average it shortens the duration of infection for a day and mildly reduces the mortality rates, but those at greatest risk of mortality will remain the same as they still won't have the immunity to fight the lessened severity of the virus if that makes sense?
I know when I worked there (going back 4yrs now) it certainly never really took off as the wonderdrug it was hailed as, if it really was so great at its job (and of course it must have some effect to have a licence) why was it not used massively then? common or garden influenza is a real killer (we seem to forget that with people getting jumpy over avian flu) so why was it not made routine protocol to treat every case with it? why rely so heavily on the (also not especially effective) vaccine? Also I doubt the government aren't as keen to make people aware of the documented side effects? did you know for instance that it can (and does) cause severe psychological disorders? (there have been a good few number of reports of those who have committed suicide after taking it), the cycnical part of me wonders if Roche are not rubbing their hands in glee that this is being glossed over whilst they are being hailed as the saviour of the nation?
I think allopathically, really the only hope is that a vaccine is isolated quickly. I'm not dismissing this because I'm a homoeopath, my background is in pharmaceuticals and I'm actually a great believer in it and some of the wonderful drugs we have created. I just think this is one were allopathy can't win. The government need to educate society in preventative measures (for example I keep free range chickens, as do thousands of homes in the country - I had to actively seek out the DEFRA safety advice, not once have I seen it publicised anywhere, in in places where it would make sense like animal feed stores, now if my chickens get sick, I know what to look out for and what to dobut I wouldn't have unless I had actively sought the advice!).
I do think alternative medicines have a large role to play here and one which the government are being foolish to overlook. Nature has some very powerful antivirals. I have prophylaxed my chickens homoeopathically and *if* (sorry I still stand by that :D) it makes it over here, I will seek colleagues advice to come up with a homoeopathic pandemic remedy, I will also be reading up on other forms of alternative treatment so that I can formulate my own "action plan" (one that doesn't include Tamiflu in case you hadn't guessed :D). I'm sure you could get some on the internet somewhere if you googled? just make sure it isstill in the branded blister packs.I just fear that we are creating a shortage in the same way that we all panic over petrol shortages when the blockades are in force:D
Maybe I should be more worried? who knows!!!!!
Answers:
That's a good all-round view IMHO. Thanks.
Well, I have an attitude toward these things that even if it's as bad as can be, there's no point in worry. ;)
Couple of points. Yes, certainly don't discount that natural remedies may have an effect. But possibly minor? Yes, I also on google saw links about suicides but didn't click onto them.
Non-seriously, taking up your point on Roche our great saviours. I wonder if they happen (the conspiracy theorist in me wonders) to be in China right now tampering with chickens? :eek:(Joke.)
If it could turn out this way, since avian flu pandemics apparently occur anyway about three times a century, the best possible outcome would be for H5N1 not to jump species to humans (as human-to-human) but for it to be a huge wake-up call for much better preparedness for when the next pandemic actually does occur. That's to me the best hope.
And maybe in the looooong term we could persuade the Chinese and others into different diets and lifestyle. These things don't need to occur.
Venetian
Answers:
LOL :Doh if you'd met the Roche big wigs you'd understand why they would never go to China (they're all traditional Swiss banker types). The suicide claims are true, I've seen the official paperwork.
Answers:
HS, (if I may so abbreviate?), many years ago I lived overseas for a while. "Expat" Brits consulted a Swiss doctor ('nuff said? ;)) Anyway, it was widely recommended that whatever dose Dr X prescribed, if you halved it, you might stand a chance of remaining on your feet or, if bed ridden, of rising from it that much sooner. :D
:eek: Seriously now, I wonder if you could be persuaded to post briefly on the Pets, Animals and Wildlife Forum in regard to your freerange chickens, eg DEFRA's website, and where people can go for more information. Thanks.
Venetian, in answer to your original question, though my reply may not help much and is what I have heard on BBC TV News. And I have not personally bought it online, and don't intend to.
There have been warnings NOT to buy Tamiflu over the Internet because of the risk of getting a sub-standard or fake product rather than the real McCoy. I'm sure you've already discovered that if you put "Tamiflu online" into Google, you'll get millions - literally - of results, including Tamiflu's own website, which states it is for USA users only. Safety regulations?
As for standard flu jabs - said to be no protection whatsoever against bird flu. A few years ago, when flu jabs were beingrecommended, I got a very strong gut feeling that "I do not want that rubbish in my body", so I've never had one.
Perhaps I'm being an ostrich about bird flu (sorry! [&o]) but while I'm a great believer in the efficacy of herbal remedies and take them to great effect, I also agree with your balanced view about seeing what's available from all fronts, and making an informed decision. I also think there's a lot to be said for an attitude of "I'm not getting flu - I'm too busy" - facile possibly, but it's worked for me. *Touches wood*.;)
Holistic
Answers:
Agreed. It's never even ever occurred to me.
I think apologies are in order with that one!
Yeah, I know what you mean - with regard to ordinary flu. There's a post up above as though this would just be another flu but maybe a bit worse! Unfortunately it would be a whole different level of thing, and without going into detail the record of what happened in 1918 is plain. Positive thinking for most people is unlikely to hack it. From the 1918 example, you'd be beyond thinking clearlywithin a few hours.
I'm sure the super-rich can obviously get anything they want, but it looks like as far as the original thread subject is concerned it could be too late to get any Tamiflu, or, as you say, it'd be a big online risk.
V
Answers:
[blockquote]
[sm=hidesbehindsofa.gif] *grovels* I'm really, truly sorry I said that!
There have been full programmes devoted to bird flu, but they tend to be shown around the time I usually have dinner and some of the Asian content in particular is not exactly appetite enhancing.[:'(] However, I did watch a bit about a doctor being interviewed, in Asia, using x rays to demonstratehow totally and rapidlylungs are destroyed. Not nice!
I forgot to say earlier, on the topic of availability of Tamiflu, I heard some talk of the manufacturers allowing others to also make the tablets under license.
EDITED to add a link on this:
Holistic[/blockquote]
Answers:
Have to agree holistic....there was some totally un-nessescary experimentation happenning to cats going on it that prog.[:@]
sickening ![:'(]
Answers:
I wouldn't worry about it big V!
Whilst I'm not huge on conspiracy theories - I do think this one is a big media hype stratergy. What story would you put on the front page if your were trying to sell your 'rag'?
Add to that -The pharma companies aren't yet struggling for cash, but they are starting to feel the need for some long term security.
It all sounds a bit Hitchcockian to me, but then I have good sources for my alchemical tinkerings.
Andrew.
Answers:
Hi And,
Trouble is, on conspiracy, it can be hard to know which way it's going. When this was really in the news a week or so back, seemingly independently-thinking scientists were saying "It's not if, but when". If true that it usually happens three times a century, that figures. I forget the actual quotes, but I was thinking 'conspiracy of silence?' when there were some front-page quotes trying to play the subject down.
Interesting - just like bootleg CDs etc., you probably got the story a few days back that India apparently copies drugs from companies like Roche without licence e.g. drugs that help fight AIDS. They were claiming to have copied Tamiflu. That led to an interesting war of words: Roche made it seem producing Tamiflu was about as hard as building a rocket to the moon - "Incredibly complex, a great number of ingredients, at one stage it can explode" (I think I really read that!). On the other hand, they are talking about - I forget the technical term - but taking the licence from Roche and making it public domain, basically.
Also interesting that at least the UK says it has enough of the vaccine for 25% of the pop. By contrast the big, wealthy USA, where you have to pay privately virtually to live, has only enough for 4.5%. What's the guessing what kind of people that's reserved, and not reserved,for?
V
Answers:
No-one is sure how viable Tamiflu is going to be. If bird flu comes then take sensible precautions about crowded places etc. For myself I would far rather be prepared by having echnicea, Vitamin C and when my kids were little I gave them orange flavoured Cod liver oil with vitamin C (they very rarely had chest or flu problems) so much so that my mother who suffered from brochitis now takes Cod liver Oil and Vit C every day and it has really turned the winters around.
There is so much you can do to empower yourself. If we had to relie on any outside help in a crisis, I think most of us would be on the lowest rung of the food chain. Just work out a strategy, prepare for it and then forget about it and have fun, enjoy Christmas.
I have a two-page pdf aromatherapy outline of what one practice in Hong Kong is doing to minimise the affects of SARS (Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome – Atypical Pneumonia). If I remember correctly that too was caught from chickens etc.
If anyone wants a copy just email and I will send it. It contains methods etc. Unfortunately I don't have the website, but you have all the health centre's details if you want to find out more,
These are their recommendations and the oils. Remember essential oils must always be diluted in a carrier oil and used with caution if pregnant or if you have a medical condition.
E
Answers:
Sorry part of my email got wiped out here's part 2.