Breaking Keto??
Breaking Keto??
This question is two parts. I will start with the simple one.
1. Some articles and links say that the carb-up period for a CKD can be as long as 20 days between carb-ups. I was under the impression the carb up was important for maintaining muscle mass. If we can go that long without one, is it really necessary? Could I just not eat carbs at any point and workout regularly and be fine?
2. There are some links like this http://www.biblelife.org/myths.htm that are EXTREMELY AGGRESSIVE in their statements that carbs will end the world. Now, I am taking this with a grain of salt and understanding it is a little biased. Even so, is a carb-up really a good idea? Primitive man certainly did not carb-up on a regualr schedule. I still would assume that primitive man was in better condition cardiovascular and body fat-wise than a lot of current humans. Obviously, primitive man did not countinually lose muscle mass because all he hunted was meat. I would submit to you that the opposite must have been the case. After all, we are here today because of it.
What a post, the best one I've read since joining BB.com. I have to pop your rep cherry :)
Hi
1) I don't know enough to answer or comment on that but I'll be interested to see others' responses :)
2) I don't want to read that link but I simply cannot do with these cavemen theories. Yes, they would theoretically have lived on a diet of mostly whatever they could catch, kill and eat. However, any community that lives like that goes through barren spells where nothing is caught and nobody gets fed. I can't accept that when a cavedweller hadn't eaten for a while and was extremely weak through hunger, they didn't look at things growing around them and think "hmmmm, wonder if I could eat that?" Surely the survival instict would have pressed them into attempting to eat pretty much anything when they were starving - the plants around them for example and any roots they might dig up from the ground. My own belief is that early humans did eat the vegetation around them but possibly only when all sources of meat had dried up. But I doubt there is any historical, scientific proof that they lived only on meat/fat to the exclusion of all other things.
It depends a lot on your goals. If general fitness is a goal, then you can space out your carb-ups a lot. If you want to gain or retain a lot of muscle, then you need the carb-ups.
I'm sure primative man could beat us all up with one arm tied behind his back. But he didn't care how he looked in his loin cloth.
What a post, the best one I've read since joining BB.com. I have to pop your rep cherry :) If you are serious, thank you.
2) I don't want to read that link but I simply cannot do with these cavemen theories. Yes, they would theoretically have lived on a diet of mostly whatever they could catch, kill and eat. However, any community that lives like that goes through barren spells where nothing is caught and nobody gets fed. I can't accept that when a cavedweller hadn't eaten for a while and was extremely weak through hunger, they didn't look at things growing around them and think "hmmmm, wonder if I could eat that?" Surely the survival instict would have pressed them into attempting to eat pretty much anything when they were starving - the plants around them for example and any roots they might dig up from the ground. My own belief is that early humans did eat the vegetation around them but possibly only when all sources of meat had dried up. But I doubt there is any historical, scientific proof that they lived only on meat/fat to the exclusion of all other things. I am sure that you are right. But think about this. We eat veggies on a keto diet. I am not saying that these "caveman" theroies are the end all and be all. Think about how many carbs a primitive man would probably eat from vegetation. He would have to sit around all day and do NOTHING except EAT GREEN things he saw to get even a quarter of the carbs in ONE average American (or 1st world) meal. I would venture to guess that primitive man did NOT sit around all day and eat veggies.
It depends a lot on your goals. If general fitness is a goal, then you can space out your carb-ups a lot. If you want to gain or retain a lot of muscle, then you need the carb-ups.
I'm sure primative man could beat us all up with one arm tied behind his back. But he didn't care how he looked in his loin cloth. You addressed my worst fear slightly. Are you saying that a "carb-up-less" CKD will not give me the washboard stomach I desire? If so, how do I figure out when/if I need regular carb-ups?
Oh, I forgot to say: while cavemen wouldn't have had structured carb-ups, they did eat carbs. Everytime they found a beehive, a patch of root vegetables, or ripe fruit, they would have had themselves a carb-fest.
Carb-ups are a very interesting topic. Are they really needed when reducing bodyfat? From a normal American sedentary life, none are needed. The lean mass that is probably being lost is the fact that the longer you stay on a Atkins type diet the less you'll eat. Cutting out grains and other bulky carbohydrates shrinks the stomach size, and the level blood sugar levels caused by eating fat and protein limits hunger; thus you eat less without knowing.
For the bodybuilder, is where the problem lies. I can't find one good reason to include carbohydrates to a bodybuilders program besides the fact that I have a very strong penchant for McDonald's French fries and Snicker's ice cream bars. The more I read about different body-building diets the more I learn that these diets are written in a sugar coated way so that more people can adhere to it. So diet books need to taken with a grain a salt.
I think carbs ups are not needed especially when bodyfat is our goal, but can be worked in to our programs. I feel that carb ups should be short and intense to limit fluctuating insulin levels, and you need to limit the protein eaten with carbohydrates to as low as possible for better digestion. For most people, carb ups will never go away, but the longer you eat protein and fat, the less carbs your body needs and wants.
if you wanna have the lean and cut look no you don't need the carbs... if you want to carry around significant muscle yes you do, but you'll gain fat too... and only remain cut for short periods of time... just like bodybuilders... you can definitely retain a functional and good amount of muscle eating none though... and when you are under 10% bf it will be an optical illusion and look like you have more muscle than you do.
that being said your workouts will not be as productive as the build up of glycogen is needed for hard and long workouts and to get extra endurance...
anyway op, yes it can be done.
the more level u keep your blood sugar and keep carbs out the faster the fat burning goes...
todays fruit are also cultivated and picked to be much sweeter.
2. There are some links like this http://www.biblelife.org/myths.htm that are EXTREMELY AGGRESSIVE in their statements that carbs will end the world. Now, I am taking this with a grain of salt and understanding it is a little biased. Even so, is a carb-up really a good idea? Primitive man certainly did not carb-up on a regualr schedule. I still would assume that primitive man was in better condition cardiovascular and body fat-wise than a lot of current humans. Obviously, primitive man did not countinually lose muscle mass because all he hunted was meat. I would submit to you that the opposite must have been the case. After all, we are here today because of it. It's funny case I just registered to ask a question and then noticed your post, which it's somehow related to mine. I can't answer your first question cause I'm a total noob in body-building but about the cavemen thing. Well I haven't really read the link I just saw they feature the food pyramid. If they are criticizing that it's not biased. The food pyramid is simply wrong. Yes, human are omnivores but in the same sense than a dog is omnivore. You can feed it on rice if you want but he will always have meat if it can choose, and if you feed him on only rice it will get ill. We are pretty much the same, *but* theres a couple of things you have to take into account when looking at our diet during the paleolithic:
- We had the meat uncooked, so you have to include in the diet all the things that we got from raw meat that we dont get from cooked meat (from the top of my head: vitamin c, well we are getting it from the multivitamins anyway).
- Before being meat-oriented-omnivores we were hervibores (when we had tiny brains and we didnt need the extra calories) and we didnt lose that ability to survive on vegs until today. Going by evolution theory, if we didnt its because we used that ability. (I'm guessing that it was just as a last resource because of the reasons below, or as a complement.)
Now I won't tell you why low carb diets are healthier, that they are is obvious to any person that can understand that a diet that produces obesity wouldn't take place in nature. But there's a couple of reasons why you shouldn't carbup (i.e: have a lot of carbs at once):
- Starch (rice, bread, pasta) requires a lot of chloridric acid to be digested. This makes digestion very slow (and unhealthy for obvious reasons). Even at the end most of the starch isnt digested already so it gets to the intestines where it produces bacteria.
- The same starch stops protein from being properly digested (by acting like a gel in the surface that captures pepsin, which you need to digest proteins).
So, to corroborate your assumption, this is an indicator that the caveman didnt carbup. If he did we'd have stronger digestive systems that can produce a lot of acid and resist it. Even if you managed to eat only simple carbs in the carbup, you already know what will happen with your insuline...
Oh btw I'd love to give you references but the industry is busy telling us the "dangers" of salt and saturated fats so there's no english publications that I know of about this.
I'm sure primative man could beat us all up with one arm tied behind his back. But he didn't care how he looked in his loin cloth. Well said Eileen.
I suppose also noteworthy would be that primitive man was not concerned with performance either. He did not consider bench pressing 315 lb's this month vs. 300 lb's 3 months ago a priority. He did not have a specific intense hour of anaerobic exercise 3-5 days a week. He likely spent most of his days walking/tracking food.
Well said Eileen.
I suppose also noteworthy would be that primitive man was not concerned with performance either. He did not consider bench pressing 315 lb's this month vs. 300 lb's 3 months ago a priority. He did not have a specific intense hour of anaerobic exercise 3-5 days a week. He likely spent most of his days walking/tracking food. Yea, that's what I'm thinking. The carb ups are good for us wanna-be bodybuilders who want to work out all week going close to (and in some casing reaching) muscle failure. If I threw the weights out the window, I can't imagine the point in doing a carb up on the weekend.
This question is two parts. I will start with the simple one.
1. Some articles and links say that the carb-up period for a CKD can be as long as 20 days between carb-ups. I was under the impression the carb up was important for maintaining muscle mass. If we can go that long without one, is it really necessary? Could I just not eat carbs at any point and workout regularly and be fine?
2. There are some links like this http://www.biblelife.org/myths.htm that are EXTREMELY AGGRESSIVE in their statements that carbs will end the world. Now, I am taking this with a grain of salt and understanding it is a little biased. Even so, is a carb-up really a good idea? Primitive man certainly did not carb-up on a regualr schedule. I still would assume that primitive man was in better condition cardiovascular and body fat-wise than a lot of current humans. Obviously, primitive man did not countinually lose muscle mass because all he hunted was meat. I would submit to you that the opposite must have been the case. After all, we are here today because of it.
Answer:
What a post, the best one I've read since joining BB.com. I have to pop your rep cherry :)
Answer:
Hi
1) I don't know enough to answer or comment on that but I'll be interested to see others' responses :)
2) I don't want to read that link but I simply cannot do with these cavemen theories. Yes, they would theoretically have lived on a diet of mostly whatever they could catch, kill and eat. However, any community that lives like that goes through barren spells where nothing is caught and nobody gets fed. I can't accept that when a cavedweller hadn't eaten for a while and was extremely weak through hunger, they didn't look at things growing around them and think "hmmmm, wonder if I could eat that?" Surely the survival instict would have pressed them into attempting to eat pretty much anything when they were starving - the plants around them for example and any roots they might dig up from the ground. My own belief is that early humans did eat the vegetation around them but possibly only when all sources of meat had dried up. But I doubt there is any historical, scientific proof that they lived only on meat/fat to the exclusion of all other things.
Answer:
It depends a lot on your goals. If general fitness is a goal, then you can space out your carb-ups a lot. If you want to gain or retain a lot of muscle, then you need the carb-ups.
I'm sure primative man could beat us all up with one arm tied behind his back. But he didn't care how he looked in his loin cloth.
Answer:
What a post, the best one I've read since joining BB.com. I have to pop your rep cherry :) If you are serious, thank you.
Answer:
2) I don't want to read that link but I simply cannot do with these cavemen theories. Yes, they would theoretically have lived on a diet of mostly whatever they could catch, kill and eat. However, any community that lives like that goes through barren spells where nothing is caught and nobody gets fed. I can't accept that when a cavedweller hadn't eaten for a while and was extremely weak through hunger, they didn't look at things growing around them and think "hmmmm, wonder if I could eat that?" Surely the survival instict would have pressed them into attempting to eat pretty much anything when they were starving - the plants around them for example and any roots they might dig up from the ground. My own belief is that early humans did eat the vegetation around them but possibly only when all sources of meat had dried up. But I doubt there is any historical, scientific proof that they lived only on meat/fat to the exclusion of all other things. I am sure that you are right. But think about this. We eat veggies on a keto diet. I am not saying that these "caveman" theroies are the end all and be all. Think about how many carbs a primitive man would probably eat from vegetation. He would have to sit around all day and do NOTHING except EAT GREEN things he saw to get even a quarter of the carbs in ONE average American (or 1st world) meal. I would venture to guess that primitive man did NOT sit around all day and eat veggies.
Answer:
It depends a lot on your goals. If general fitness is a goal, then you can space out your carb-ups a lot. If you want to gain or retain a lot of muscle, then you need the carb-ups.
I'm sure primative man could beat us all up with one arm tied behind his back. But he didn't care how he looked in his loin cloth. You addressed my worst fear slightly. Are you saying that a "carb-up-less" CKD will not give me the washboard stomach I desire? If so, how do I figure out when/if I need regular carb-ups?
Answer:
Oh, I forgot to say: while cavemen wouldn't have had structured carb-ups, they did eat carbs. Everytime they found a beehive, a patch of root vegetables, or ripe fruit, they would have had themselves a carb-fest.
Answer:
Carb-ups are a very interesting topic. Are they really needed when reducing bodyfat? From a normal American sedentary life, none are needed. The lean mass that is probably being lost is the fact that the longer you stay on a Atkins type diet the less you'll eat. Cutting out grains and other bulky carbohydrates shrinks the stomach size, and the level blood sugar levels caused by eating fat and protein limits hunger; thus you eat less without knowing.
For the bodybuilder, is where the problem lies. I can't find one good reason to include carbohydrates to a bodybuilders program besides the fact that I have a very strong penchant for McDonald's French fries and Snicker's ice cream bars. The more I read about different body-building diets the more I learn that these diets are written in a sugar coated way so that more people can adhere to it. So diet books need to taken with a grain a salt.
I think carbs ups are not needed especially when bodyfat is our goal, but can be worked in to our programs. I feel that carb ups should be short and intense to limit fluctuating insulin levels, and you need to limit the protein eaten with carbohydrates to as low as possible for better digestion. For most people, carb ups will never go away, but the longer you eat protein and fat, the less carbs your body needs and wants.
Answer:
if you wanna have the lean and cut look no you don't need the carbs... if you want to carry around significant muscle yes you do, but you'll gain fat too... and only remain cut for short periods of time... just like bodybuilders... you can definitely retain a functional and good amount of muscle eating none though... and when you are under 10% bf it will be an optical illusion and look like you have more muscle than you do.
that being said your workouts will not be as productive as the build up of glycogen is needed for hard and long workouts and to get extra endurance...
anyway op, yes it can be done.
the more level u keep your blood sugar and keep carbs out the faster the fat burning goes...
todays fruit are also cultivated and picked to be much sweeter.
Answer:
2. There are some links like this http://www.biblelife.org/myths.htm that are EXTREMELY AGGRESSIVE in their statements that carbs will end the world. Now, I am taking this with a grain of salt and understanding it is a little biased. Even so, is a carb-up really a good idea? Primitive man certainly did not carb-up on a regualr schedule. I still would assume that primitive man was in better condition cardiovascular and body fat-wise than a lot of current humans. Obviously, primitive man did not countinually lose muscle mass because all he hunted was meat. I would submit to you that the opposite must have been the case. After all, we are here today because of it. It's funny case I just registered to ask a question and then noticed your post, which it's somehow related to mine. I can't answer your first question cause I'm a total noob in body-building but about the cavemen thing. Well I haven't really read the link I just saw they feature the food pyramid. If they are criticizing that it's not biased. The food pyramid is simply wrong. Yes, human are omnivores but in the same sense than a dog is omnivore. You can feed it on rice if you want but he will always have meat if it can choose, and if you feed him on only rice it will get ill. We are pretty much the same, *but* theres a couple of things you have to take into account when looking at our diet during the paleolithic:
- We had the meat uncooked, so you have to include in the diet all the things that we got from raw meat that we dont get from cooked meat (from the top of my head: vitamin c, well we are getting it from the multivitamins anyway).
- Before being meat-oriented-omnivores we were hervibores (when we had tiny brains and we didnt need the extra calories) and we didnt lose that ability to survive on vegs until today. Going by evolution theory, if we didnt its because we used that ability. (I'm guessing that it was just as a last resource because of the reasons below, or as a complement.)
Now I won't tell you why low carb diets are healthier, that they are is obvious to any person that can understand that a diet that produces obesity wouldn't take place in nature. But there's a couple of reasons why you shouldn't carbup (i.e: have a lot of carbs at once):
- Starch (rice, bread, pasta) requires a lot of chloridric acid to be digested. This makes digestion very slow (and unhealthy for obvious reasons). Even at the end most of the starch isnt digested already so it gets to the intestines where it produces bacteria.
- The same starch stops protein from being properly digested (by acting like a gel in the surface that captures pepsin, which you need to digest proteins).
So, to corroborate your assumption, this is an indicator that the caveman didnt carbup. If he did we'd have stronger digestive systems that can produce a lot of acid and resist it. Even if you managed to eat only simple carbs in the carbup, you already know what will happen with your insuline...
Oh btw I'd love to give you references but the industry is busy telling us the "dangers" of salt and saturated fats so there's no english publications that I know of about this.
Answer:
I'm sure primative man could beat us all up with one arm tied behind his back. But he didn't care how he looked in his loin cloth. Well said Eileen.
I suppose also noteworthy would be that primitive man was not concerned with performance either. He did not consider bench pressing 315 lb's this month vs. 300 lb's 3 months ago a priority. He did not have a specific intense hour of anaerobic exercise 3-5 days a week. He likely spent most of his days walking/tracking food.
Answer:
Well said Eileen.
I suppose also noteworthy would be that primitive man was not concerned with performance either. He did not consider bench pressing 315 lb's this month vs. 300 lb's 3 months ago a priority. He did not have a specific intense hour of anaerobic exercise 3-5 days a week. He likely spent most of his days walking/tracking food. Yea, that's what I'm thinking. The carb ups are good for us wanna-be bodybuilders who want to work out all week going close to (and in some casing reaching) muscle failure. If I threw the weights out the window, I can't imagine the point in doing a carb up on the weekend.